Every Friday, the Fifth World will host a virtual panel session on a
topic of the week. This week's subject: Politics in Comics.
Chris Maka
Welcome to part one of the first
Fifth World roundtable!
Sean Fields
Greetings all!
Chris Maka
We’re going to be talking about
politics and comics today.
When we started the Fifth World, I
wanted to “avoid politics” just to avoid any of the hassle from upsetting
anyone along political lines. But it quickly became apparent that we can’t
separate politics from anything in the modern world, so I thought it better not
to restrict ourselves or try to turn a blind eye to things that will be obvious
to many readers.
So let’s start with this: since
obviously comics can be political, and in some cases arguably should be, how
obligated are they to represent “all positions” or all political leanings?
JL Franke
They’re entertainment and art, not
journalism. Completely different rules.
Sean Fields
I don't think there is necessarily
an obligation. I think it is entirely dependent on the character and the plot.
Emily Marazzo
I think it should depend on the
person who is writing/drawing the comic. Just like with all other forms of art,
it largely reflects the artist's observations and opinions. Comics are no
different.
JL Franke
It really boils down to marketing
considerations given they’re commercial enterprises. Will a given title or
issue sell enough if they alienate some percentage of their potential
readership with their views?
Jason Tondro
Certainly, Jerry is 95% right. Most
comics are made to be art. I only qualify that because there is, in fact, such
a thing as Comics Journalism. See, for example, Safe Area Gorazde, Palestine,
and other work by Joe Sacco. Sacco is doing journalism and he works hard at
keeping a neutral, outsider point of view. He tries not to make the story about
him, but to record what he sees and what people tell him. But that’s an
exception. Most comics are made to be art. And art does not have to consider
both sides.
JL Franke
Good point, Jason. And now I have
more comics I need to read.
Jason Tondro
Nor does art need to consider the
money, if the artist chooses not to. An artist working for DC or Marvel has
corporate bosses, and needs to answer to the demands of the publisher. But an
artist who isn’t concerned with money doesn’t even need to go that far. They
can create their own views in art.
Greg Morrow
I think that the pursuit of balance
in art is probably doomed to failure. Insincere balance or token balance will
be apparent to the reader to their alienation.
Sean Fields
I definitely feel that some comic
books (just talking about art as opposed to comics journalism) are more able to
touch on the political, like Captain America.
JL Franke
Tell that to Fox News, Sean. :grin:
Sean Fields
Ha!
Jason Tondro
Ha! But yes, I agree with Sean’s
point, that some characters are more inherently political than others.
Black Panther, for crying out loud.
Sean Fields
And back to Emily's point, it is
also dependent largely on the artist/creator. And if your story is trying to
tell a larger message about society as a whole. Some comics are just fun.
Jason Tondro
There were some examples of this
recently: an X-Men artist who put anti-Semitic phrases in the background of hisart. Got called out for it and fired.
Greg Morrow
What about comics that wouldn't be
political except for the external politics the readers impose on them? Ms.Marvel leaps to mind – it's a book about a young girl immigrant superhero. It
becomes political only when our society's political issues are imposed on it.
JL Franke
Good point, Greg. Some titles can’t
escape the political even if they tried.
Chris Maka
How would we feel if someone, wrong
though we might consider this view, honestly and sincerely felt that Steve
Rogers should be written as a neo-conservative? Does the writer have a “right”
to do that, to retcon the character if necessary, if he has editorial’s
blessing?
Jason Tondro
There’s a lot here, so I’m going to
address Chris’s point because, of course, Captain America HAS in fact been
portrayed in that way. In the 1950s, his book was relaunched as CaptainAmerica, Commie-Smasher, and I think it lasted only 4 issues, maybe 3.
Greg Morrow
Millar's Ultimate Cap was an
attempt to reframe Cap (incorrectly) as a modern conservative. As Jason Tondro notes,
not the first time, either.
Emily Marazzo
But was it our politics that
influenced the creation of such characters and the need for them in the
industry?
Sean Fields
I think with any mainstream comics
you can kinda get away with any angle because it ultimately returns to the
status quo of the character in the end.
JL Franke
Of course, I think a good character
can survive almost any (non-extreme) interpretation. Batman works completely
differently by Grant Morrison than he does by Frank Miller.
Greg Morrow
From a continuity standpoint,
saying that Cap is a conservative would be as abhorrent as any retcon. We've
seen Cap for many years take liberal positions, had his background elaborated
as one that would almost without exception be a Roosevelt Democrat, and oppose
villains who exemplify modern conservative positions (in one memorable case, avillain who was in fact the President).
But as to the writer and
corporate's right to do it; they have the right to do whatever they want, of
course. That doesn't mean it's good art. But it also doesn't mean it's not good
art.
Chris Maka
Is there a kind of market cowardice
then in not writing some of these characters to their logical, liberal,
extreme?
JL Franke
Why would it be cowardice? Does the story depend on that viewpoint?
Jason Tondro
Back in 2009, Matthew Pustz, who is
a cultural historian, did an analysis of politics in comics and he titled it,
“Michael Moore in Tights.” And what he was investigating was the possibility or
potential of a progressive superhero. And what he found, and Matthew is very
much an evidence-based historian, is that as Sean is getting at — these
characters are inherently status quo. As the politics of our country sway one
way, so the characters sway. And when politics swings back across the pendulum,
they drag the characters with them. These characters — especially the ones
owned by the big publishers — mirror our culture.
Emily Marazzo
That's a really good point. If
characters can handle being killed off every other issue and still survive to
live another day, why not interpret them to have changing political views? At
the very least, it makes them more realistic in my opinion.
Greg Morrow
There's a book – I of course do not
remember title or author – which explored how Superman and Batman were rapidly
"tamed" by the publisher from more radical beginnings to much tamer
upholders of the status quo: allied with the police (Batman especially – as we
saw in Batman '66 – as essentially an arm of the PD). Superman went from a strike-buster
buster to Joe System.
Sean Fields
Yeah, think Grant Morrison
mentioned that in his new 52 "re-imagining". Hence the boots and
t-shirt.
Jason Tondro
Yes, that’s very true. While it’s
probably not the book you’re thinking of, Greg, the Superman side of that case
is presented in Ian Gordon’s Superman: the Persistence of an American Icon.
He starts off an FDR Democrat, but
DC pressures his creators to strip all the politics out, and pretty soon he’s
just fighting bank robbers and mad scientists.
Greg Morrow
But saying that superheroes uphold
the status quo is missing the modern part of the story – the status quo for
decades was the post-war liberal consensus. The modern Overton Window shift of
the last two decades means that superheroes can adhere to the current status
quo, or they can adhere to the same status quo they've been following, with
radically different results.
Jason Tondro
Right, that’s interesting. I see
your point. The status quo has changed so much since the invention of
conservative media. So which version of culture does the superhero adhere to?
Greg Morrow
I have a lot of cognitive
dissonance about the death of the post-war liberal consensus – for roughly the
entirety of this century, I have been uncomfortably aware that I simply do not
understand half of this country.
Jason Tondro
Boy, do I hear you, Greg. That’s
why I wrote my first column here, the response to the Pajama Media articleabout Captain Marvel. I was trying to get through to my mum, who is a diehard
Trump supporter. Total failure, by the way. She didn’t even read it.
Sean Fields
I always felt that from when I can
remember starting reading comics that the heart of Cap is America as the guy
fighting for what we need it to be with all the judgment that comes with the
USA's reality vs Superman, which is the idealized America as many think it is
in their brains/hearts.
Greg Morrow
Sean, I agree with you. Both Cap
and Superman are about idealism, and specifically American idealism. But Cap
does more to confront where we diverge, while Superman is more about
encouraging us to aspire to that ideal.
Jason Tondro
For me, the quintessential Captain
America scene is him standing between two different rioting mobs, holding them
apart and trying to help them see they have more in common with each other than
they do differences.
Emily, you were bringing up
realism. Is it important that a character have political views to be realistic?
Can we plausibly create or tell a story with a character in 2017 who doesn’t
think about politics? I say this because, despite Chris’s original idea that we
shouldn’t talk about politics here, that’s the first thing many of us did.
Emily Marazzo
Absolutely! I don't know about the
rest of you, but I don't think about politics 100 percent of the time. Family,
work, and other things take up some of that space, and our entertainment should
reflect those aspects of our lives just as much as politics.
But that's the exact reason why we
shouldn't shun politics in comics.
Should we include politics in all
age/children's comics, though?
Greg Morrow
Politics is a part of life – especially
now, when we are so polarized.
JL Franke
Agreed with Emily. I don't think we
had a lot of political content early because we are all inherently political
animals. I think we write about what we
respond strongly to, and in many cases, political content of today evokes
strong reactions.
Greg Morrow
Childhood is the best time to
indoctrinate. "Indoctrinate" is a strong word, but honestly, instilling
political principles is part of instilling moral principles.
Jason Tondro
I guess I become very skeptical of
readers who insist comics should “stick with entertainment,” or however they
choose to phrase it. This idea that comics were ever somehow not a way to talk
about politics, and the only responsible thing for Marvel and DC to do is never
discuss anything that could be seen as political. When in fact comics have
always been political. Comics are culture. And we’re in the Culture Wars. So comics
are a battlefield in that war.
Sean Fields
This.
Greg Morrow
The seeds of my current politics
were definitely sewn during my childhood, when I was exposed to
environmentalism, feminism and the like (including liberal Catholicism, which
used to exist, and which emphasized pastoral care for the needy).
"Stick with
entertainment" is a deflection, and a clumsy one.
Jason Tondro
Right, right. Pope Francis is
trying to bring that back, isn’t he? Forgive my ignorant tone.
Greg Morrow
Pope Francis has said a lot of
really, really positive Catholic things as well as some run-of-the-mill stupid
Catholic things. But we digress.
JL Franke
That statement makes me nervous,
Greg. I would not be surprised to find
out that part of why we've entered such an age of extremism in this country is
that we've conflated politics with morality.
When it's working best, politics sidesteps the question of morality.
Jason Tondro
Oh I disagree. I find it very hard
to talk about politics without talking about morality.
Emily Marazzo
I agree with Jason, politics are
driven by morals.
Greg Morrow
I think I disagree, Jerry – you
can't approach taxation or health care without thinking about who they're going
to affect and how, and that invites moral judgment.
Sean Fields
I'm trying to think of a
non-morality based political issues.
Greg Morrow
The politics of HIV research was
driven by moral judgments against the ******s and drug users who had it.
Sean Fields
I'm sure one exists I'm just
drawing a blank.
JL Franke
My issue is not with including
moral judgment in politics, it's declaring politics = morality. I'm going to mangle the quote, but there was
a wonderful line on The West Wing about how there were few days in the White
House involving an absolute wrong and an absolute right, and those usually
involved a body count.
Greg Morrow
You can make any political issue
moral – imagine a tree-planting project; now condemn it as stupid green propaganda.
Jason Tondro
I think I see where you’re coming
from, Jerry.
Greg Morrow
Morality isn't binary. I mean, I'm
fond of the Elliot S Maggin Superman line, that good and evil exist in the
universe and the difference is not hard to see – but all of us, especially as
we mature, appreciate that everything is gray.
But in politics as in life, we can
try to be more like Superman or we can try to be more like Darkseid.
(Almost wrote Thanos!)
Jason Tondro
Certainly, politics is almost by
definition the art of compromise and deal making. And that’s not something
we’re often comfortable with when it comes to our morality. Morals and ethics
guide our politics, but in the end politics is a lot messier. We can’t survive
as Rorshach, “Never Compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon.”
Greg Morrow
"Never make the perfect the
enemy of the good."
Honor LaBerge
I'm a little behind, but back to
Emily's question earlier, I think introducing even real or imagined politics in
YA or All-Age comics is pretty standard at this point. It creates great plot
dynamic and normally flows through to the resolution, and in the end most of
the time the characters come to find out they weren't that different at all, just
thinking in a different way. (Also excuse me for not chiming in sooner, I had
to wait 30 minutes for a sticker for my car. Y'all have made some pretty great
points so far.)
Jason Tondro
Right. Yes.
I’m glad you brought us back to
that, Honor. Because I have not read nearly enough YA comics. Are there some
stand out examples of politics in YA or all ages books?
Sean Fields
I'm trying to think, was there ever
a time I didn't view comics/media through a political or at least a societal
reflective lens. I'm not sure there was, or at least not after the age of ten.
Greg Morrow
When I was a young comics reader,
Hawkman and Green Arrow sniped at each other in the pages of JLA over political
issues.
Honor LaBerge
I think it's a common trope you see
in most stories anywhere to honest. You become presented with an issue and
objecting sides become present. Several different characters have conflicting
ways how to handle it and it proceeds from there.
Jason Tondro
Life with Archie did a real number
with this, over the last few years before Archie’s “death” and the book was
relaunched. With, for example, the introduction of gay characters, including a
gay marriage, a debate at Riverdale between candidate Obama and Sarah Palin,
and a shooting at a political rally.
JL Franke
I think Hawkman/GA is a good
example of why trying to achieve balance usually doesn't work very well. Hawkman always came off as a jerk, for
example. It's difficult to effectively
channel the opposing side with any empathy if you feel strongly the other way.
Sean Fields
Good point, Jerry.
Greg Morrow
Is there a line between
"politics are present" and actually advocating a particular position?
The people writing JLA were
slightly one-sided in that era....
Sean Fields
I think there is a definite
difference between advocating vs just presenting.
Jason Tondro
I agree, Jerry. And we can see both
sides of that when, for example, Chuck Dixon writes Green Lantern/Green Arrow
and satirizes all the liberal issues that Denny O’Neil wrote about in the 70s.
Honor LaBerge
I think there is a line between the
two.
Greg Morrow
The "just entertainment"
people would then proceed to argue that comics shouldn't advocate so much, they
should stick more to just presenting.
Emily Marazzo
Then it's terrible entertainment
Greg Morrow
There's a point there, which is
that advocating something you don't feel strongly or sincerely about is bad
art.
But neutering what you do feel
strongly or sincerely about in order to avoid "advocating" is also
bad art.
Jason Tondro
Prompted by you all, I have been trying
to figure the first time I became aware of politics in my comics. And I was a
Marvel Zombie as a kid. So I think it was in Captain America, when he was
dating Bernie, his Jewish girlfriend.
Sean Fields
How did that make you aware, Jason?
Jason Tondro
It was one of those “two sides
rioting” stories, and I think one side was just anti-Semitic. I’m not sure if
everyone would call that “politics,” but it feels that way to me now.
 |
| From the story arc in Captain America #275-#279 -- Curious Chris |
Sean Fields
Ahh, okay.
Chris Maka
It felt that way to me then. I
think marginalization of minority demographics by the majority is always
political, and always wrong and immoral.
JL Franke
I think I remember that story.
Jason Tondro
Mike Zeck, I think...
Greg Morrow
The few writers I could really say
I know anything about, they want to say something, but they also really want to
cash that check.
Jason Tondro
But I digress.
JL Franke
I believe you're right. Roger Stern writing, IIRC.
Sean Fields
Yeah that was kinda what I was
referring to with politics or a societal view always being present for me.
Jason Tondro
Y’know, we’re ignoring the long
tradition of comics which are intended PRIMARILY for politics: political
cartoons and strips like Doonesbury.
Greg Morrow
It's been a century since political
cartoons were really nationally relevant, I think.
Sean Fields
I think it has always been
political for you if the politics of the time affects you strongly/negatively
vs nothing changes for you much with any change in status quo. I think this
time recently has just been a lot of shift so it comes up more or is more
noticed.
I can't remember when I last read
Doonesbury.
Greg Morrow
It's Sunday-only now (weekday
reruns)
Jason Tondro
I hate to be the person to point
this out, but your typical superhero comic sells 30,000 copies a month in a
nation of 350 million. We have no ground to stand on, to call anything
irrelevant. 1 in 10,000 people read Spider-Man.
Greg Morrow
How many people saw Captain America:
Civil War?
Chris Maka
Let’s say that someone who listens
to Steve Brannon wanted to write any kind of comic book to support those views
but without being preachy. Possible? And what would that look like?
Sean Fields
Anything is possible but would it
be any good. From what I know about Bannon's politics it seems pretty hard to
make a "good story" from that, that is supportive of his stance.
Greg Morrow
I think that conservative writers
have been writing comics here and there all along -- Chuck Dixon on Robin comes
to mind.
Jason Tondro
Well, now that’s important, Captain
America: Civil War, but it’s not comics.
Sean Fields
I saw it.
Greg Morrow
Is it really distinguishable,
though? The reason superhero movies are finally working is because they're
finally reflecting the comics
Honor LaBerge
I saw it too.
Jason Tondro
Civil War the movie had perilously
little to do with the comics. It boiled pretty quickly down to “Your best
friend killed my mom.” It shirked the politics, and that’s why people liked it.
Greg Morrow
That is more reductive than I'm
willing to accept. The first half of the movie is about the Accords, and that's
purely political.
JL Franke
The only way I can get my mind
around a reasonable depiction of Bannon's politics is to buy into and propagate
the sanitized version that he periodically trots out about economic
nationalism.
Chris Maka
I agree. I think it’s interesting
that certain parties are mainstreaming political ideologies that in heroic
fiction you could not effectively write any way other than as villainous. But
in real life many people see these views as “good”. It would be interesting and
challenging to try to write that sympathetically in a heroic fiction context.
Greg Morrow
In particular, Captain America:
Civil War is about characters lining up and taking a position on a political
topic.
JL Franke
I have to agree with Jason. It veers away from the political pretty
quickly. By the time they fight, it's no
longer about the abstract topic but instead about whether or not they believe
Bucky was framed.
Greg Morrow
Miller's Holy Terror hardly
qualifies because of the "non-preachy" requirement.
 |
| Gross. |
Sean Fields
Actually you are right, Jerry. You
can do a Bannon political comic book like a "real American" version
of Black Panther but the issue would be T’Challa also helps out those outside
of Wakanda which is key to his moral dilemma and his people. Don't think that
would work with a Bannon "hero."
Chris Maka
Great point, Sean.
Greg Morrow
Fine, then Winter Soldier – overt
conflict between order and freedom. As our own Marc Singer put it
(paraphrasing) – superhero stories allow the concretization of metaphor into
external conflict like no other genre in history.
Sean Fields
Yeah but the order in Winter
Soldier is based in Hydra and I don't care what gymnastics they want to pull in
the MCU, Hydra = Nazis. Easy to pick a side.
JL Franke
True. Although just to mix the two threads together,
the Captain America in Civil War is a type of Bannon hero if you squint enough.
Sean Fields
How so, Jerry?
Greg Morrow
That may be the writers putting a
thumb on the scale – but there is a moral and political conflict that is
reified in Hydra v. Cap.
Emily Marazzo
I'm surprised no one has brought up
V for Vendetta
Sean Fields
Man, and I had some stuff to say
about associating order with oppression but okay, Greg. :wink:
Totally forgot about V.
JL Franke
The movie Cap (a) is fighting to
avoid government regulation of superheroes because of the detrimental effect it
will have on society – heroes need the freedom to do their thing, and (b)
recognizes the dangers that lurk out there because the bad guys don't have
their hands tied behind their backs.
It's not the best of analogies, but I can see someone spirited enough
championing it.
Sean Fields
Is there any fiction even outside
of comics-based stuff that has order being the end goal without wildly taking
away freedoms and putting corrupt/evil/bigoted men in power?
JL Franke
Squadron Supreme was an interesting
exercise there.
Sean Fields
(Was going to make a comment about Cap
being a gun freedoms advocate but no idea how to phrase it right.)
JL Franke
There were certainly freedoms in
jeopardy, but the point of Squadron Supreme was that good, just people make for
tyrants just as easily as the corrupt and evil.
Sean Fields
Squadron Supreme and CrimeSyndicate stories are always interesting takes on order and power, and Crime
Syndicate definitely went to the other side with it.
Honor LaBerge
Cap tries to embody America, I
don't think they'd allow him to be anything even slightly against anything in
the Constitution.
JL Franke
Hopping back to V, one of the
things I found intriguing about the series was that almost no one was clean,
except maybe Evie and the detective whose name escapes me. V was just as much a monster as the regime he
was fighting.
Sean Fields
I think Cap is definitely all for Constitutional
rights, but he’s also the person who would call out our BS. Or he was when I
was reading him ages ago.
Maybe that's the point of it all.
We can slip either way when we let the pursuit of power affect our morals
and/or politics.
JL Franke
I look at it slightly differently,
in that both V and Squadron Supreme show the dangers of imposing morality on
others.
Sean Fields
Good point.
Emily Marazzo
Extremes on either side tend to be
in the wrong.
Back to the whole balance thing, I
think it's hard to portray because it's hard to achieve. V for Vendetta kind of
just took everyone's morals and upped them to 1000, even going after the
church, to show that no one was really pure or good or however you choose to
phrase it.
Sean Fields
I think Jerry asked a good question
in the planning for this discussion – "whether folks read stories that
have a different political slant than their own leanings, and if so, how they
respond to that."
Honor LaBerge
Here's a question for ya'll, How do
you think being political in comics is changing new readership? I know many
people Emily and I's age try to steer clear of political topics or reading that
contain tones we don't necessarily agree with.
Let's get to Seans question first.
Sean Fields
I think those questions actually
overlap, Honor
JL Franke
I think you just addressed that
question at least partially, Honor. :-)
Honor LaBerge
Hahaha I believe it does.
JL Franke
I think for myself, I can divide
pieces on views in opposition of my own into two groups: those that make me
think (at least for a moment) and those I feel come off as naive or overly
simplistic. I love the one but bristle
at the other.
Sean Fields
I know I read mostly things
entertainment-wise that bolster my own political leanings, especially recently.
I also think as a person who has been around the same characters for awhile, I
have what the character is "supposed to be" locked in my head and
sometimes shut down when they aren't, like Cap in that recent Secret Empire
story.
Chris Maka
For me it's a question of
exploration of themes or values versus preaching. Preaching I cannot stand.
Sean Fields
I think if it is a new or
unfamiliar character I'm definitely more open to anything, except outright
bigotry.
Chris Maka
Agreed, Sean
Honor LaBerge
I can agree with that, when a
character all of a sudden takes up a cause and starts to preach a topic, I lose
most interest.
Emily Marazzo
Even when it aligns with my ideals,
I'm with Chris. It tends to alienate people rather than build a constructive
debate on the topic
JL Franke
Agree with all. At the very least, it runs afoul of the rule,
"Show, don't tell."
So are there any political topics
too hot to touch in comics?
Honor LaBerge
I honestly don't believe there
isn't a topic comics or entertainment can't touch.
Sean Fields
I think there is pretty much
nothing untouchable politics-wise IF you don't care about alienating someone.
If you’re making something for just people who agree with you then the
opportunity exists for you to do it somehow.
Emily Marazzo
Would there be a good example of
creating an open discussion on a political issue in comics rather than just
alienating people? Or would that just circle back to the whole
"balance" thing?
JL Franke
I'm honestly not sure it's possible in today's
political climate to openly discuss politics without alienating people.
Honor LaBerge
Back to the previous question, I
think if Alan Moore can actively write rape scenes in most of his stories there
isn't a topic people can't touch as long as, like Sean says, you don't care
about alienating someone.
Sean Fields
I think it's harder but there
should still be ways to discuss certain issues. The problem is that most things
involve actual living people and the fates/lives of those folks so it makes it
harder.
Emily Marazzo
That's a good point, Sean
Sean Fields
Entertainment and fun entertainment
at that should be able to present an issue in a way to talk about it with maybe
disagreement in the end but both sides are heard. I think Star Trek was really
good at that.
JL Franke
I resonate well with that second
sentence especially, Sean. My view is
that 90% of political debate (at least when not simplified) is about the
balance of rights and freedoms between different populations.
Honor LaBerge
I agree with that comparison, Sean.
Sean Fields
Yup. I also think it's easier to
talk about certain things in groups where you feel comfortable. Geek culture is
both great for that and absolutely horrible at the same time.
Chris Maka
This.
JL Franke
Uh oh, do I hear the words
gamergate echoing through the subtext?
Honor LaBerge
Sssshhhhhhh
Sean Fields
On one hand, it should be all
inclusive and welcoming to people with open minds because if you can wrap your
head around aliens and people fighting in capes for good you should be a
positive human.
But on the other hand, claiming a
culture "as just for me and people like me" pushes out other folks.
Not to say that some ***holes
shouldnt be excluded...
JL Franke
I think one issue is that it
doesn't take much to turn "fighting for good" into "fighting
against evil", which are not necessarily the same thing.
Sean Fields
True.
Chris Maka
This might be a good stopping point
for Part 1. See everyone for Part 2 Friday afternoon!
5W Friday Panel: The Politics in Comics Roundtable (part one)
Reviewed by Chris Maka
on
Friday, November 03, 2017
Rating:
Reviewed by Chris Maka
on
Friday, November 03, 2017
Rating:
