5W Friday Panel: The Politics in Comics Roundtable (part two)

Every Friday, the Fifth World will host a virtual panel session on a topic of the week.  This week's subject: Politics in Comics.

Chris Maka

Welcome to Part Two of the Fifth World Friday Panel roundtable on politics and comics! Please check out Part One here.

Let's start this session with this: Some people continue to complain about Marvel "replacing" established heroes, who happen to be predominantly white and male, with female characters and characters-of-color, saying that Marvel is just appeasing "Social Justice Warriors". The "replacing" verb is obviously inaccurate, but is there any merit to the complaint at all?

Sean Fields

Hola

JL Franke

Greetings

Sean Fields

I think this goes back to the point made in Part One about returning to the status quo. I knew even introducing new "takes" on characters that the original characters wouldn't go anywhere for long and would return after awhile.

Chris Maka

Yeah, that should be obvious to anyone who’s read Marvel or DC comics for any length of time.

JL Franke

But new takes can still end up going somewhere if the character ends up being a winner.  For example, I don't think Kamala Khan will be going anywhere anytime soon.

Sean Fields

Oh, definitely. A new character if done well should be around for the long haul.

I like the idea of a new character taking up the mantle, and I think there is more complaining when it is done with a generally non-white male character. I also think comic book geeks are really particular about "their" heroes (see any Robin or Flash argument).

 

I like to see a person with a different take on justice/world view/life issues put on the spandex. Change is good. Or good change is good.

Chris Maka

Definitely

So let's be frank: some readers are, in fact, racist, and for them this is part of their Cultural Racial War. But I know that there are also people whose issue is that they are diehard fans of a particular character, and part of the traditional conception of this character is being white and male (because 99% of Marvel and DC characters have been and still are white and male).

I get that geeks can be hostile to change in that way, but to me that's a privilege issue

Sean Fields

But I get the argument against it if maybe I would state a different reason beyond "you're ruining my characters."

Chris Maka

I also dislike the argument that "I don't care if they make new characters", because new characters do not have a good track record of sticking around or getting enough fan support initially to survive.

Sean Fields

Good point.

Chris Maka

If Miles Morales were simply "Insect Fighter" or whatever, he wouldn't still have a title, most likely.

Miles Morales as Spider-Man

Sean Fields

Not at all.

Chris Maka

But as it is, he's very popular as a Spider-Man

Sean Fields

I think people also grumble as things change until they realize they kinda like it, like in music. The problem is when your basis for an argument is racist or sexist or homophobic.

Chris Maka

Right

Sean Fields

It is nice to see faces that look like your own from time to time.

Chris Maka

Representation is HUGE! It makes a big difference, and we should embrace that

JL Franke

Along those lines, we do have the quote from Michelle Rodriguez about diverse casting in superhero films:  "Because of this whole 'minorities in Hollywood' thing … it's so stupid.  Stop stealing all the white people's superheroes. Make up your own."  I believe her point (based on her later follow ups) was meant to be that she wanted to see minorities like her have their own heroes rather than be shoehorned into another culture.

Sean Fields

Yeah, I got her point but to Chris' point, it is hard to get to that point initially. Making non-Marvel/DC superheroes is a tough gamble.

(I've always wondered if people do this or if I'm the only weirdo but when I read books I like to put myself into the role of the main characters until I'm told that they don't look like me. Harder with comic books but maybe that is a discussion for another day?)

Chris Maka

I totally do that!

Obviously easier for me, because I am male, and the whitest.

Sean Fields

LOL

JL Franke

I'd also separate the cases where it's a different character taking on the mantle of a superhero (Miles Morales as Spider-Man, Jane Foster as Thor, Connor Hawke as Green Arrow) versus the underlying character being re-imagined (Wally West recreated as an African-American character, Amanda Waller made skinny, Princess Projectra recreated as a fashion-conscious snake).  In the former case, there's an addition to the legend, while in the other, while something's added, something's lost.

pic 

Jane Foster as Thor

Sean Fields

Those last two were definitely a bit odd for me – Waller and Princess.

Chris Maka

Good points, Jerry, and yeah, same here, Sean

Greg Morrow

Most of the characters I started with are still the versions I prefer today -- for all that I joke about "Saint Barry", Barry Allen is still my Flash. So I sympathize strongly with the people who miss Captain Steve. It's not that Sam is black; it's that he's not Steve.

Sam Wilson, Captain America

Sean Fields

Yeah, Wally is my Flash and Tim ismy Robin.

Greg Morrow

But I have no problem AT ALL with Captain Steve and Captain Sam standing next to each other.

JL Franke

I find I'm able to relate regardless of race depending on the personality and experience of the character.  I mourned the reboot of Wally (now undone as a separate Wally) not because I needed Wally to be white, but because I identified greatly with the adult Wally that a suddenly young Wally lost for me.

Greg Morrow

For all that the publishers sometimes think that we're confused if two characters have the same name, we don't.

3600 GLs was never a problem.

Chris Maka

Right, Greg

Greg Morrow

At a certain age, collecting all the variants is a common obsession

JL Franke

DC has been having a lot of fun with multiple Robins for the past several years.  It can work.

Greg Morrow

We certainly seem to be in a phase where duplicate names are common

Sean Fields

To the point of Cap, I kinda like the fact that people in the comics gave Sam beef, because that was reality. I also kinda prefer Sam as Falcon usually. He feels more like himself in that role IMHO.

Chris Maka

Same here, Sean

Does it feel like the "new characters don't do as well" thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy? I notice that both DC and Marvel have long been reluctant to sink serious money into promoting new characters.

Ms. Marvel they did because they were (quite justifiably) very proud of the character. Although she's not a completely new character concept per se either

Still bitter Unstoppable Wasp was cancelled.

Greg Morrow

I'm kind of xenophilic anyway, so when the next legacy character is female or Muslim or black or gay or whatever non-default characteristic, I kind of like it

Sean Fields

I love comic book creators, but I think they (or maybe the publishers) can become lazy. We have a million Supermen. The fear of a "new" character is ridiculous. Image did it for the whole of the 1990s.

Greg Morrow

Part of Ms. Marvel's appeal is the portrayal of an immigrant Muslim family – you get both the interesting new details but the same universality of experience

Sean Fields

Hard to ride the line between business and creativity maybe?

Yup, Greg. Me too

JL Franke

I think that was a complete cop out by whichever Marvel exec said it.

Sean Fields

Confidence and faith in your creation goes a long way, particularly if the idea is good.

Chris Maka

Oh totally, Jerry. And amen, Sean.

Greg Morrow

Comic book creators are justifiably reluctant to hand over their awesome new character for a WFH [Work For Hire] page rate, though, so the big two sometimes struggle to find awesome new characters

Chris Maka

Do Marvel and DC still do decent character creator packages? I know they were back when.

Greg Morrow

My understanding is that DC is better about it than Marvel

I was told recently by a writer I know that at the latest DC writer's retreat, editorial challenged them to "create four new characters". Which just gives terrifying flashbacks to Bloodlines, but I digress

Chris Maka

Good! But Greg, will DC follow through and market them and support them for the, say, 24 issues to build a solid audience?

JL Franke

That's my understanding as well, Greg.  Thank Paul Levitz among others for the character creation package.  Len Wein earned far more for Lucius Fox than he ever did for Wolverine, which is a sin.

Sean Fields

BLOODLINES! HAHAHAHA!

Chris Maka

Ugh

 

I refuse to add a Bloodlines pic. Here, have a cute puppy photo instead. -- Curmudgeonly Chris

JL Franke

So hidden among the diversity battles is something I'm similarly troubled by, which is DC and Marvel's war on marriage.  The idea that married = boring and unwritable is just appalling to me.

Chris Maka

OH! Yes!

Greg Morrow

That's a good one.

JL Franke

I was ecstatic to see Mr. and Mrs. Superman brought back.

Sean Fields

Yup, which is why I'm glad old Superman is back.

Great minds, Jerry.

Greg Morrow

That's got to be a demographic grab, though, assuming the audience is a) unmarried and b) can't relate.

When I was young, I aspired to a healthy adult relationship like Barry Allen

Sean Fields

I get the argument, maybe, for like Dick Grayson or even Peter Parker, maybe. But Clark needs Lois in my head, and Barry needs Iris. And I'm unmarried and have no problems with married folks being awesome.

Chris Maka

This has long been a pet peeve of mine in the Legion: ostensibly "teen age" characters who pair off in romantic relationships and stay together for YEARS without breaking up or getting married or even cohabitating.

Greg Morrow

Assuming that comic book years pass like our years is your problem there

JL Franke

That was why I loved the fact that they finally let the Legion age – at least until they rebooted them.

Chris Maka

Teens and twenty-somethings do not, for the most part, stay in long-term relationships. I am well acquainted with comic book time, but come on. 😊

Greg Morrow

Not to restart the Legion flamewars, but $#@! they were aging all along -- the Levitz v2 Legionnaires were clearly older than the Levitz v1 Legionnaires, who were clearly older than the Hamilton Legionnaires

Sean Fields

It's always weird that people can't do like that girl in that Old El Paso commercial -- "Why can't we do both?"

JL Franke

Never been married, but we've had decades of single Clark and single Peter.  To me, marriage was an *opportunity* for new stories, not a roadblock.

Chris Maka

Sean, exactly! And I agree, Jerry.

JL Franke

The multiverse is your friend.

Chris Maka

Yes. And boy I wish Marvel and DC would better organize the current state of their respective multiverses.

Sean Fields

Clark should never be single. Lois or Lana grounds him. Peter single is good when it is funny to make him a sad sack.

Greg Morrow

Part of my reaction to Legion relationship stability is again, aspirational – I want a stable relationship

Chris Maka

Greg, I am with you there, but they shouldn't ALL be that stable. Representation matters, which should include realistic and understandable foibles of youth, right?

Greg Morrow

I agree it's not naturalistic, but hey, utopian science fiction future with superpowers, you lost big chunks of naturalism on page 1.

JL Franke

They weren't all stable.  Vi and Ayla breaking out on their own and then hooking up was certainly not keeping the status quo.

Greg Morrow

The superheroes should have the good relationships. The bad guys and NPCs should have the bad relationships. Aspirational.

They were pretty stable up to second Levitz, which introduced some variability slowly.

Chris Maka

For that matter, there are lots of foibles, like drug use, that comics still tend to treat like OMG THE HORROR! THE HORROR! that are very common and casual parts of people's lives – and I don't even mean just recreational drugs.

Sean Fields

This is kinda crazy because I can name two marriages that were kinda iffy but still lasted in the Richards and Pym with Van Dyne.

Chris Maka

Greg, you're assuming that staying together automatically equals "good relationship", but that ain't necessarily so.

Sean Fields

Just show all aspects of humanity. Or try.

Chris Maka

How about instead demonstrating good relationship navigation skills? The ability to deal with break-ups and whatnot without becoming a creeper would be good too.

JL Franke

I'm not sure if the Pyms are a relationship for Greg to aspire to.

Sean Fields

I hope not. Ha!

Chris Maka

Why are the two options Barry and Iris or the Pyms?

Am I the only person who dated more than one person before getting married?

Sean Fields

Marriage is for suckers!

Joking.

Chris Maka

Am I a villain or an NPC? See, you've alienated me out of comics. 😊

Greg Morrow

lol

JL Franke

There was a great relationship in between those two in the Parkers.

Sean Fields

(Unrelated, I now want to figure out a way to make Bloodlines good.)

Chris Maka

Can’t be done. Kidding. I think.

Greg Morrow

I have lost track of any point I may have been trying to make – I'll just say that obviously marriage is not the end of stories.

Chris Maka

I agree. And I am okay with stable long term relationships, but I'm also okay with relationships not working in a healthy way.

They've done good stuff with Peter Parker at times in this regard

JL Franke

I think it's about diversity.  Everything being one way is just boring.

Chris Maka

Right

Okay, to veer in a different direction now: In the previous session we talked about how superheroes were born out of Rooseveltian liberalism of WWII era America. And through all the decades they have maintained at least elements of what is now called "Social Justice". But.

Superhero comics have, and continue to, be very uncompassionate towards certain types of people or actions that liberals are normally more supportive of. For instance, we know that a lot of street crime is born out of poverty and is an understandable if illegal survival strategy. But superheroes routinely just beat the shit out of all street criminals without much discernment if any. Are they not promoting the Rush Limbaugh party line on poverty and unemployment and other actual liberal issues?

Greg Morrow

Captain America's variant John Wesley rule: Punch all the Nazis you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, as long as you ever can.

 

Yes.

Chris Maka

I don’t think street criminals should be equated with Nazis, and I know you don’t either.

Greg Morrow

We occasionally see Batman's Wayne Foundation doing useful things, and Batman referring people to Wayne Foundation programs. Fairly common in the sort of Wein era.

JL Franke

I think it depends.  If the criminals are threatening others, that goes beyond "here's a social program for you" state, at least in that moment.

Sean Fields

Batman #44 from 2 years ago.

JL Franke

When there's not a threat to the safety of others, I think that's where we start seeing the spectrum of potential approaches between, say, The Punisher and Spider-Man.

Sean Fields

Batman 44 is about police brutality, poverty, and Batman actually talking to the brother of a person he beat up instead of assuming he is just a criminal.

Greg Morrow

But yeah, Spider-Man hangs a whole lot of muggers up for the cops without investigating why they're mugging. That's Spider-Man's iconic action.

Sounds like an interesting story, Sean

Sean Fields

It was different.

Greg Morrow

I think some of it is born out of necessity from the serial form – superheroes need to do something superheroic every issue, and punching a mugger is an easy go-to.

Batman's War on Poverty isn't quite as dramatic as Batman's War on Gangs

Chris Maka

If writers are going to bring a liberal bent to their work, should they make an effort to be a little better on the issues? Or would that lose too much of the fantasy fun element?

Greg Morrow

I think I'd want to do some kind of era-based survey to get a handle on how much social justice v. unthinking fists of justice we see

Chris Maka

I'd love to see such a survey. Let's lean on Jess Nevins -- he doesn't have anything else going on!  :-D

Sean Fields

It would lose the fun element but it's not drastic fantasy. A lot of social justice is just lip service to the results of a problem but not the actual roots of the power.

Chris Maka

Sean, I think you just nailed it

Sean Fields

Even in real life it's easier to talk about stopping crime and not the origins of it.

Chris Maka

And I don't think all superhero comics should address that, but it would be interesting if one or more did. And not in an annoying, preachy way.

Sean Fields

The Nighthawk miniseries kinda did in a dark Marvel Batman way, a bit.

Chris Maka

Oh yeah, good one!

JL Franke

Superheroes like Spider-Man aren't fighting a mission for social justice any more than police officers are tasked with repairing societal fractures.  They're both there to try to protect the innocent and (at least in the case of the cops) enforce the law.  They're not there to determine whether an illegal act is warranted, as that's what the courts are for.

Chris Maka

Yeah, superhero stories are really only focused on the first of the three parts of criminal justice, for the most part. I get that it’s the nature of heroic fiction.

Greg Morrow

See, I'm remembering the "relevant" era of comics – O'Neil/Adams GL/GA, "Man thy name is brother" JLA, etc.

Sean Fields

The Green Lantern issue with the black dude confronting him?

Greg Morrow

yeah

Chris Maka

Ha! I'm going to flip-flop a little, because I HATE the relevant era of comics, but that's because Denny was really bad at politics. But part of that is the fantasy versus reality conflict we're talking about

 

Yes you can! "I saved the Earth 12 times. You know, where the black skins live?"

Greg Morrow

It was a big step forward for comics, which is mostly saying how bad comics were before.

Not how good relevant actually was, because relevant was clumsy, preachy, sometimes deaf, but points for trying.

Sean Fields

It's also hard for someone to talk about issues when you aren't living the life or only understanding it secondary or in the abstract.

Which is why representation beyond how the characters look is important. Representation on the creative side.

Chris Maka

OOOOH, Sean, great point! Which reminds me that I'm glad DC and Marvel are bringing in so many diverse creative voices these days.

Greg Morrow

Yes.

Chris Maka

Not that they can't do more.

Greg Morrow

We need more Canadian guys writing comics. 😊

Chris Maka

Just Justin Trudeau. Because we need Justin Trudeau doing everything.

 

"My mere presence makes this article 65% better, eh?"

Sean Fields

Which is also why independent comics are important as well, to give a voice.

Greg Morrow

I was recently impressed with Black.

Chris Maka

Yeah, we have leaned really heavily on DC in Marvel in these discussions, while not digging in enough on indie titles.

Greg Morrow

Black's premise was not exactly novel -- Truth covered some of it, Milestone covered some of it -- but Black took it further, and was deeply grounded in American racial tensions, I think.

Sean Fields

I only read the first issue of that and it was a good start. Gotta finish it.

We need to one day just make a list of indie titles to read. I don't read enough of them.

Greg Morrow

Hard to argue with Jamal Igle on art.

Chris Maka

Yeah, I agree. That would be a good 5W Friday Panel topic: Everyone recommends a different indie title and says why they recommend it.

In the meantime, everyone go support the Silence Kickstarter campaign, please! I want my Wall of Sound collection.

Okay, that’s gonna do it for Part Two of our first roundtable panel. Thanks to everyone who participated, and thanks to everyone who’s read all the way through both parts! We would really appreciate some comments down in the comments section below.