JL Franke
I am here.
Jason Tondro
Welcome!
JL Franke
We'll see how intelligent and witty I can be tonight. I have the flu.
[This will become TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT LATER - ed.]
Jason Tondro
Ugh, my condolences
JL Franke
So Marc, where do we start?
Marc Singer
We didn't draw up rankings ahead of time - and with only six movies in the official DCEU, it's not like there's much of a point - so maybe we should just start talking movies?
Sean Fields
Saw Aquaman the other day.
Marc Singer
And since the crowd will probably be clustered around the bottom, maybe we should start at the top.
Or with the most recent one. What did you think of Aquaman?
JL Franke
Sure! FYI, to prep, I actually went back and rewatched the movies that are available for streaming. Except for Suicide Squad. You guys don't pay me enough to sit through that one again.
Marc Singer
Even the members of the Suicide Squad wouldn't sit through Suicide Squad again.
Sean Fields
I enjoyed Aquaman. Told a good story and didn’t take itself seriously which was good. Can’t do another grim movie.
Marc Singer
Yeah, I really appreciated the change of tone.
Sean Fields
Also really liked Manta and Queen Atlanna in it.
Marc Singer
I thought this was visually the most compelling DCEU movie, and one of the best-looking superhero movies period.
Jason Tondro
I enjoyed Aquaman a lot, especially its sense of wonder, the world-building. And, of course, as a recovering Arthurian scholar, any movie that begins with a reshoot from Excalibur and ends with everyone hailing “King Arthur of Atlantis” is basically talking straight to me.
JL Franke
My review of Aquaman is handily up on 5th World. I was highly entertained but found many faults. I think it's the right direction for the DCEU, but there's still a way to go for DC to produce something akin to Black Panther.
Sean Fields
Which is funny because I thought Aquaman was reverse BP
Marc Singer
I don't think Aquaman is a character who can carry the thematic weight or cultural importance of a Black Panther, even under the best circumstances.
Sean Fields
As far as outsider coming home story.
JL Franke
Definitely agree on the world-building. I greatly appreciated the fact that Atlantis has all of these distinct kingdoms, even if half of them are populated by bad CGI.
Marc Singer
And to be clear, these circumstances were about as good as they can get for an Aquaman movie! I left the theater in a haze of disbelief that I'd actually had fun.
I also liked the world building, even if most of the kingdoms were pretty one-note.
Chris Maka
I felt the same way. Enjoyed Aquaman, was glad for the change in tone, and had a good time with it.
I'm so glad they didn't try to make Black Manta more "credible" or "realistic" by changing his design or making him grim 'n' gritty in some fashion. I thought he was great in a manner very true the comics.
Jason Tondro
All part of the “It’s Tuesday so this must be the Trench” nature of the movie. What did you call it, Marc, a “picaresque romp”?
JL Franke
Sure, I wasn't looking at the cultural importance of Black Panther (and I'm pleased as punch that we can use that term and BP in the same sentence with real weight). But just purely as a piece of isolated cinema, it didn't measure up.
Marc Singer
Jason: Only in response to the friend who called it "a chaotic wandering mess."
Jason Tondro
I’m not disagreeing, I think that’s a pretty fair appraisal!
Marc Singer
Both are accurate, but the movie is in enough on the joke that I went with the former.
Jason Tondro
I agree
I mean, any movie that samples the rains in Africa is laughing at itself, which I appreciated.
Marc Singer
I thought the production design was fantastic. The lighting in particular was really effective, with dramatic contrasts between searing light and abyssal dark... no Zack Snyder "everything is gray" color palettes here.
Sean Fields
Also played to Momoa’s big goofy guy strengths
Marc Singer
I also appreciated the fight choreography, esp. in the opening battle on the submarine. There's a moment where Aquaman flips one of Manta's guys and Wan tilts the camera in sync with the throw and I loved loved loved it.
Chris Maka
Oh man, the color variety was spectacular!
JL Franke
Visually, the movie gets major points from me for making the battle with the Trench on the boat so clear despite it happening at night. Very few movies get that right.
Jason Tondro
My only other real observation on Aquaman is that I found it interesting to watch the character transition from Aquabro to king. I don’t think Wan had much interest in the Aquaman we saw in Justice League. But it provided a great launching point for the character’s coming of age story.
Marc Singer
They even embraced Aquaman's goofy orange-and-green costume. This felt like the superhero movie that is least embarrassed to be a superhero movie.
Sean Fields
Kinda Thor-ish
Yup
Marc Singer
Jason, I had the same reaction.
Jason Tondro
How far we have come since Wolverine making jokes about wearing yellow spandex!
Chris Maka
Yes, what Marc said
Marc Singer
The movie deliberately takes us from a Snyderesque Aquaman who allows Manta's father to die to a more moral one who refuses to kill Orm.
Jason Tondro
Oh, allowing Manta Sr. to die IS very Snyder, that had not occurred to me!
JL Franke
I agree that it is proudly unembarrassed by its source material, though I'd point out that Wonder Woman featured many of the same qualities we're liking about Aquaman. Perhaps DCE should pay attention to that pattern.
Chris Maka
Agreed, Jerry
Marc Singer
We'll get to this when we start making comparisons, but I felt like WW didn't take those elements far enough. Aquaman is the next step.
Jason Tondro
Segue to Wonder Woman, everybody!
Chris Maka
My only major complaint with Wonder Woman was the Snyderesque big dumb bad CGI fight at the climax.
Marc Singer
Aquaman probably needed WW to be a hit to get made the way it was made, but it was able to go farther.
JL Franke
Marc, I hadn't thought of the Manta Sr. scene as being a direct reference (and ultimately a repudiation) of the Snyder/Whedon Aquabro.
Marc Singer
I saw it as very gamely starting out where the character was (where all Snyder's characters are) and taking him where Wan wanted him to go.
JL Franke
And unlike Aquaman, WW did have the kind of cultural importance that BP had. I vividly recall being surrounded by crying audience members at the first showing.
Chris Maka
Definitely
Jason Tondro
Certainly, WW is a more important film. I was not the audience for WW, and that made it awesome, because 99% of all superhero movies are aimed straight at me, and it was so awesome to see one that was not.
Sean Fields
WW definitely had me at moments
Marc Singer
Yeah, Aquaman will just never carry that kind of weight. (Although I did appreciate that the movie didn't run away from Momoa's own heritage as a Pacific Islander.) But I don't see that as being anything the movie can control.
Chris Maka
What Jason just said. Not everything needs to be aimed directly at me, and that was a huge win.
Marc Singer
So, I take no pleasure in saying this but... I'm not sure WW is all that great a movie.
Jason Tondro
But I am with Chris, that the CGI fight at the end of WW is just a rookie mistake, that we really ought to know better than.
Marc Singer
I liked it in the theater, and I really appreciated that WW is someone who becomes a superhero simply because it's the right thing to do. I think she's the first DC hero to do that since Christopher Reeve was lecturing us about the safety of air travel.
Jason Tondro
Hahah
Marc Singer
But every time I start to rewatch it on cable... I end up changing the channel.
Sean Fields
WW is great when you see it the first time and the power and strength behind it is great but yeah, multiple viewings and it just becomes so-so
JL Franke
Marc, I'll be interested in your thoughts on that. I find WW to be a sort of mirror image of Spider-Man Homecoming. The last part of WW is a colossal mess (like the first part of Homecoming is a bad Iron Man movie), but the other part is among the best superhero cinema I've seen.
Jason Tondro
When Diana says “I am no man” and climbs up into No Man’s Land, I got chills.
Marc Singer
The great strength of WW is its characters and casting. Gal Gadot is terrific (so good she even makes a couple of scenes in the Snyder movies work), and Chris Pine is great at everything he does.
(Side note, but I even loved him as a Spider-Man who puts out his own Christmas album!)
And the relationship between those two works, whereas the attempt to force a Romancing the Stone-style plot with Aquaman and Mera just falls flat.
Jason Tondro
I don’t know, the “eating the roses” scene actually charmed me pretty well.
Maybe I am just a sucker (I am)
Sean Fields
:joy:
Marc Singer
I loved that too! But that reminds me, I need to talk about how Aquaman (and that scene in particular) is a stealth remake of The Little Mermaid.
JL Franke
The whirlpool romance (see what I did there?) between those two was just one of several shortcuts that the movie took. Like Arthur getting the magic fork because he can speak parseltongue as well as Harry Potter.
Jason Tondro
I want to know why Mera, who can control water, is running from an Atlantean hit squad whose suits are filled with water. Like, that should have been the easiest fight in the world
Marc Singer
Or why Mera, who's been driving the plot the whole movie, doesn't go into the dark cave with Arthur and just waits for him to come out.
Jason Tondro
There you go
JL Franke
Good point Jason, though if we think too hard about most superhero movie plots, they generally fall apart quickly.
Marc Singer
(The answer seems to be "because Wan needed somebody to be outside to see him come out of the waterfall.")
But yeah, the flower scene, an actual song on the soundtrack (Roy Orbison!), the one genuine spark of attraction and affection between the two leads... I kept expecting to see Flounder and Sebastian high-fiving each other in the background.
Sean Fields
I think we all agree that WW and Aquaman are top two. Or does someone feel different?
Jason Tondro
Oh! One more last thing on Aquaman. I appreciated the plot twist that Mera’s father was not “naive dupe of King Orm who learns the truth at the last minute and dies saving Mera from certain death” and was instead kind of into the whole war thing, even knowing he had been played for an idiot.
Chris Maka
Not me. Those are my top two.
Marc Singer
I liked the different political factions we see underwater, even if most of them are barely sketched out.
JL Franke
You don't cast Dolph Lundgren for a part that's not into the whole war thing.
Jason Tondro
Nice!
Marc Singer
It actually makes Atlantis a more interesting location to me than Paradise Island.
Chris Maka
That's fair.
Marc Singer
Paradise Island is homogenous, one population, one uncomplicated system of government (which apparently nobody ever questions), and very little possibility for dramatic tension.
But Atlantis has got factions and alliances and backstabbing and traditions, all that good bargain Game of Thrones stuff.
JL Franke
It's kind of difficult to make an isolated island as interesting as a diverse set of seven kingdoms, one of whom we never even meet. Though perhaps in the future they'll start revealing long lost Amazon factions like they did in the comics.
Marc Singer
I'd be up for that. Welcome, Artemis and/or Nubia!
Jason Tondro
Great sequel material there. Anything that expands the universe, I’m likely to enjoy.
JL Franke
Really, Aquaman's world would lend itself nicely to an ongoing series if they could figure out how to shoot the underwater aspects cheaply enough.
Marc Singer
How crazy is it that we're talking about the rich potential for Aquaman sequels? James Wan did his job well.
Jason Tondro
But none of it is underwater at all. It’s all CGI. So I think cost is manageable.
JL Franke
CGI still has cost.
Jason Tondro
We’ve come a long way since the Abyss, is all I’m saying.
JL Franke
True.
Jason Tondro
OK, so, the rest of the bunch. What have we got: Man of Steel, B v S, Justice League, and Suicide Squad.
Sean Fields
I had it as WW, Aquaman, Man Of Steel, Justice League, Bats V Supes and Suicide Squad last
Think that’s it
JL Franke
Getting back to Sean's point. I think we're all unanimous on WW and Aquaman being tops in some order.
My ranking order is WW, Aquaman, Man of Steel, BvS, Justice League, Suicide Squad.
Marc Singer
So after the top two, I only see one other option for third place... and it's one of the most divisive movies of the bunch.
Chris Maka
My rankings would be Aquaman, WW, Justice League, Man of Steel, Suicide Squad, and BvS last.
Marc Singer
For all my problems with it, I have to put Man of Steel ahead of Justice League. And by a pretty considerable margin.
Chris Maka
Man of Steel has moments that I absolutely love, where I feel they really nailed it or did something creatively good, and then moments that I absolutely loathe.
Marc Singer
(My rankings btw are Aquaman, WW, Man of Steel, YOU NOW ENTER THE ABYSS OF DESPAIR, Justice League, Batman "v" Superman, Suicide Squad.)
Sean Fields
I really liked Man of Steel.
Until the last Zod bit.
Jason Tondro
When Kevin Costner’s Pa Kent embraces Clark and says, “You -are- my son,” I realized that the reason I connect with Superman is because we’re both adopted. So I give the movie something, But honestly, I hated it.
JL Franke
As a movie, Man of Steel worked pretty well for me. But what it did to Ma and Pa Kent is something I don't think I can ever forgive.
Marc Singer
The things Man of Steel gets right, it really gets right. But the things it gets wrong are so fundamentally at odds with my sense of the Superman character that they almost ruin the movie for me. And they set the entire DCEU franchise in a terrible direction that it's only just started to come out of.
Chris Maka
Agreed
Sean Fields
Exactly, Marc.
Jason Tondro
(My rankings are top bracket: WW and Aquaman; bottom: Man of Steel and B v S; and then a category I called “Tragically Flawed” for Suicide Squad and Justice League, two bad films which I thought had good movies inside them somewhere, but which were stabbed to death by production dysfunction, especially two directors with wildly different visions/studio directives)
Marc Singer
I mean, if you just wrote a Pa Kent who wasn't a sociopath, and a Superman who actually tries to, I don't know, save some civilians or something, and doesn't go straight to murder as a first resort... you wouldn't change much of the screen time, but you would completely change the tone of that movie and everything that came after it.
Chris Maka
Yes
JL Franke
I can kind of see where I think Snyder was going with his sequence of movies when it comes to an arc for Superman. It wasn't handled well at all, especially in the later two films, but you've got a Superman just learning how to be a hero and messing up a lot, you've got a Superman who is getting better at being a hero but still fighting a losing battle against the rookie mistakes he made, and then you've got the Superman who has completed his journey to becoming a true hero.
Jason Tondro
I think Man of Steel is an excellent Hugo Danner movie, about a superhero who is just a colossal fuck-up and cannot do anything right no matter how hard he tries.
Marc Singer
Jerry, you've hit on something that absolutely perplexes me about the Snyder movies and the DCEU franchise in general... they make the movies in the wrong order.
Sean Fields
EXACTLY.
JL Franke
I will give MoS props on one thing, and that's the scene where Clark first flies. The pure joy of that moment captures exactly what I think any of us would go through if we suddenly developed that ability (and weren't completely scared of heights).
Marc Singer
Like, I think Zack Snyder could probably make a pretty decent movie out of Dark Knight Returns. (Well, "decent" in the sense of "overly faithful to the letter, violates the spirit" in the way that his Watchmen was... though Snyder's sensibility is also a lot closer to Miller's so maybe that wouldn't be such a problem.) But you don't make it as, what, the second movie in your franchise?!
And obviously Suicide Squad has to be the government's response to the Justice League, not their precursor.
Sean Fields
There was such a weird “no plan” with this universe.
Jason Tondro
Nolan waited until the end of his trilogy to fan service Dark Knight Returns. But Snyder is just making movies of the comics he likes best.
Marc Singer
It feels like Snyder and Warners were so eager to get to what they view as '"the good stuff" that they weren't laying down all the groundwork they needed.
Jason Tondro
I agree.
Chris Maka
BvS is such a mess because of Snyder's Dark Knight Returns fan wankery.
Marc Singer
I really think the secret to Marvel's success is that they usually make the movies in the right order (well, Ant-Man is always a movie too late, but I digress). DC and Warners haven't figured that out.
JL Franke
It's the same kind of bad decision making that uses a Justice League movie to introduce most of the members before they each get their own films.
Marc Singer
Exactly! Could you imagine how much less work they would've had to do if they'd released Aquaman first?
Sean Fields
I think I subconsciously ranked the movies in order of how they should have been released :laughing:
Marc Singer
That works pretty well, actually!
JL Franke
Though I imagine they were worried no one would go see an Aquaman movie if he weren't introduced by a Superman/Batman suckfest first.
Jason Tondro
It is a rush job, right? I always sense a lot of flop sweat with those Warners decisions. “OMG, Marvel is cleaning our clock, we have to catch up!”
Marc Singer
They keep second-guessing themselves and changing horses midstream.
Sean Fields
Or close to it
Jason Tondro
Hence my “tragically flawed” review category
Sean Fields
You’re right, Jason
JL Franke
It's also my impression that the suits at Warners all panic midway through everything and attempt to "fix" things while just making them even worse.
Chris Maka
There doesn't seem to be a Kevin Feige keeper-of-the-vision over on the Warner/DC side.
Marc Singer
So, since we're talking tragically flawed movies with too many cooks... are we ready to move on to Justice League?
Sean Fields
Who is their Feige?
JL Franke
Allegedly, it's now Johns, and who knows, Aquaman certainly didn't suck. But if he had much to do with Justice League...yikes.
Sean Fields
Justice League was... off. Liked it well enough but it was a lot thrown in that I could deal with as a longtime fan but if this was your first ride with these characters...
JL Franke
Originally, I believe it was meant to be Snyder, which is a mistake to make a director, especially one not known for putting out high quality stuff, to be your keeper of the vision.
Jason Tondro
Justice League was so frustrating. The seams were showing. Like that scene with Diana in the bank was obviously added after WW was a huge hit, it’s got no relation to anything, we just wanted to give Gadot a scene.
Chris Maka
I think I'm grading Justice League easier than I should just because I can't help but compare it to BvS, which I hate, hate hate. Justice League was just mindless (mostly) fun in comparison.
Marc Singer
Yeah, I think the original sin of the DCEU was giving Zack Snyder the keys to the kingdom. He probably has a good Batman movie in him somewhere, but his worldview is just too antithetical to what those other characters stand for.
Jason Tondro
I’ll agree with that.
Chris Maka
Me too.
JL Franke
While I thought both films were bad, I can see a path toward making BvS a decent film. I wrote a blog post back in the day about it. But Justice League, I don't know how to turn that into a decent film without (a) releasing several other movies first and (b) doing a completely different movie.
Marc Singer
So, what do you guys think of all the fans demanding a Snyder cut? Would this movie have been better if it only had one cook? Or would it have just been a different (but slightly more consistent) flavor of crap?
Chris Maka
The latter.
Sean Fields
Different flavor.
JL Franke
I think it would have still been a bad film, but I think it would have been less embarrassing a bad film without the "fixes" put into place.
Jason Tondro
I honestly thought the character work in Justice League was okay. Like, I found Flash endearing. I kind of liked Aquabro. I think most of the bits I liked were Whedon. A Snyder cut would just be painful.
Sean Fields
They got to Apokolips stuff too fast.
Marc Singer
As I pointed out in my almost liveblog here last year, plenty of the Snyder parts are awful.
Chris Maka
And then picked one of the least interesting Apokolips villains to use.
Marc Singer
Yeah, there's no cut that can fix that!
Sean Fields
There is no way you get to that mythology without massive buildup.
Jason Tondro
So, Steppenwolf was originally going to be the giant bad guy at the end of Suicide Squad. Which would have set up Darkseid for Justice League.
But ... rewrites.
JL Franke
I'm still absolutely puzzled as to how you make a movie with Steppenwolf as the villain. Especially when you decide there's no direct followup to Darkseid.
Marc Singer
Steppenwolf isn't even a character! He's just... a guy with a funny hat.
Chris Maka
lol
Sean Fields
Wonder what Ava is going to do with New Gods to make us forget this.
Jason Tondro
You’re not wrong! But that would have been an okay giant monster at the end of Suicide Squad, especially one in which the minion bad guys were supposed to be from Apokolips. Why am I blanking on the name of the flying bad guys Darkseid uses.
JL Franke
When they switched to Whedon, they should have just gone ahead and reshot things with Granny Goodness instead.
Sean Fields
Parademons
Jason Tondro
That’s it
Marc Singer
An added bonus to using Steppenwolf as the big bad in Suicide Squad: then the entire plot isn't Amanda Waller's fault, making her and her Squad worse than fucking useless.
It's one of those movies where, if the protagonist doesn't fuck up, there is no movie.
JL Franke
Any change to the plot that doesn't involve the main villain being a bad actress acting like one of those car wash floppy guy advertisement balloons would be a positive change.
Sean Fields
Suicide Squad also should have been Diablo focused but bigger stars so...
Jason Tondro
I will always remember Suicide Squad as the movie that introduces you to the protagonists THREE TIMES in a row.
Marc Singer
Oh god, it's time for the Suicide Squad Two Minutes Hate, isn't it? Okay, [deep breath]
Jason Tondro
Inhale
JL Franke
Suicide Squad not only looked like a movie made by someone who'd never made a movie before, it looked like a movie by someone who'd never seen a movie before.
Sean Fields
SS wanted to be different but didn’t think that different doesn’t always mean good.
Also, I don’t remember but why didn’t they just call in Bats and company to deal with Enchantress?
A lot of confusion with me about that movie.
Jason Tondro
Amanda Waller has to be rescued TWICE. All the heroes originally written to die by the end instead live, to make the movie less grimdark.
Marc Singer
Triple introductions for the main characters, no introductions for supporting characters (who shouldn't have been in the movie anyway), on the nose music cues, more on the nose music cues, Hot Topic Joker, Jared Leto's Jim Carrey impression, car wash floppy guy advertisement balloon villain, protagonist and team founder who's actually the worst person in the entire movie, a script that requires Joel Kinnaman to go up against Will Freaking Smith and then lets him fall flat on his face, a script that casts one of the most charismatic actors of our generation as a silent stone cold killer who isn't supposed to have a personality, elaborate set ups for payoffs that never materialize, taking one of the greatest comics of the 1980s and wasting it...
[gasp]
Chris Maka
That about covers it.
JL Franke
And cut in an order that makes me think the editor was on meth.
Jason Tondro
He’s only halfway
Marc Singer
goddamn it, I knew I missed one
Jason Tondro
Oh, I thought you were going back for seconds!
Marc Singer
That would require retraumatizing myself.
Jason Tondro
I can’t have that on my conscience
JL Franke
On the bright side, Margot Kidder was born to play Harley.
Marc Singer
lol
"Can you read my mind?"
Jason Tondro
Hey, he’s got the flu. No one tell him.
Marc Singer
If they had done that scene with Joker and Harley, I could forgive everything else about Suicide Squad. Except it would have been the same people doing it, so they would have fucked that up too.
There is a lot of competition for the worst DCEU movie, but I think this one takes it hands down. Everything else I can at least point to something they got right, or were trying to get right. Not this one.
Chris Maka
I can't really argue with that.
Jason Tondro
I honestly wonder what the film would have looked like if only one person had made it, without interference from the studio.
JL Franke
Damn my fever-addled brain! Margot Robbie, obvs.
Chris Maka
lol
Marc Singer
Except some of the problems seem to be built in at the most basic level of the script and casting.
JL Franke
And yes, it really did take me that long to notice.
Jason Tondro
We knew what you meant!
Sean Fields
Now I want to come up with an idea for a good SS movie. Dammit.
Chris Maka
Hey, I have to jump off. I have to go into work early tomorrow. Peace, brothers.
Marc Singer
I guess there is some Suicide Squad cut that can make Boomerang (one of the richest characters in the Ostrander comics) not a one-note joke character, but there's no way to add a character that isn't there.
Sean Fields
About to do the same, Chris
JL Franke
A good SS movie shouldn't be that hard. I mean, it's the Dirty Dozen with superpowers!
Jason Tondro
We’ve been going an hour. Shall we call it a wrap?
Marc Singer
We seem to have reached the bitter end. And we barely even talked BvS!
Jason Tondro
Ugh
Sean Fields
BvS needed to turn the lights on.
And Luthor shouldn’t have been in it.
Jason
We can all sum up BvS in one word...
Sean Fields
Make that guy Max Lord and call it a day.
JL Franke
I'll just point you to my blog post. Make Luthor actually Glorious Godfrey, stop making Superman such a putz, and take out a some of the fanboy-rage-inducing bits, and it would have been okay.
Marc Singer
You know, in some ways it's the answer to all the clamoring for a Snyder cut, or the questions about what Suicide Squad could have been like without the studio interference.
Because BvS only had one director. It was one guy, with carte blanche to execute his vision...
Jason Tondro
Yes.
And it was awful.
It was “Martha.”
Marc Singer
It's a mess. It spends more time setting up future movies (that will never get made!) than telling a story about its nominal heroes.
Sean Fields
May Flashpoint reverse most of this mess and come back with a solid DCEU plan.
JL Franke
I rewatched that tonight. The Martha scene never stops being painful.
Sean Fields
I’m tapping out.
Marc Singer
Okay, thanks!
Jason Tondro
Gnight Sean!
JL Franke
So before we all go, what about the future of the DCEU? We have Shazam coming up, WW2, a Joker movie, a Gotham City Sirens movie... It just seems like a big mess with no rhyme or reason. And maybe that's what's needed -- a non-universe movie "universe."
Jason Tondro
Yes, Warners has shifted into its own Phase 2: let great directors make their own standalone movies. To be followed in a few years by Phase 3: the Brian Bendis DCEU.
Marc Singer
If Aquaman is an indication that Warners is willing to let directors break out from the Snyder tone (and color palette) and do their own thing, then I'd say it bodes well.
Then they just need to give us a Superman who isn't raised by sociopaths and they're set.
Jason Tondro
I’d be down for that.
JL Franke
And I'd be fine with that, assuming they pick directors that respect and understand the source material (I think Snyder only respected it, sadly).
Marc Singer
There is respect and there's reverence. Only one is good for the end result.
Jason Tondro
I am looking forward to Shazam. I wish they weren’t messing with Sivana and giving him powers, but okay. I’ll wait and see.
JL Franke
But I'll be honest, while I have faith I'll enjoy WW2 just as much as the first, I'm pretty nervous about Shazam and the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie.
Marc Singer
If they allow Shazam to have fun and be comfortable in its own skin the way Aquaman was, I think it could be okay. As long as there isn't a shred of Zack Snyder "do you bleed?" in it.
JL Franke
I don't think they're heading into Snyder territory. But I am concerned that they're going too far the other way and that we'll get a "Batman and Robin" level campfest.
Jason Tondro
I’m a little afraid they’ll rely on “Big with super powers” too much. I would think those jokes would wear thin fast.
Marc Singer
That is a danger too. Forced fun can be just as bad as no fun (see Whedon's contributions to Justice League).
Jason Tondro
But hey, he looks good.
I love the fact that Shazam’s suit is not a super detailed textured mass of lightning bolts or something. That he LOOKS like an Otto Binder drawing. (Did I get that name right?)
Marc Singer
CC Beck. Binder was the writer.
Jason Tondro
I knew it! Crap.
Marc Singer
Yeah, Shazam [I kind of hate myself for calling him this now - ed.] is one of those characters who works really well when people are faithful to the original material, and nobody is ever faithful to the original material.
You can tell stories for kids! It's okay.
Jason Tondro
If we make it to a Shazam II: Monster Society of Evil, I will be so stoked.
Marc Singer
That would be great.
JL Franke
The suit gets points with me. What I'm concerned about is that the joy of Captain Marvel for me was always that the stories always featured such imaginative goofiness and the series just embraced that fully without a hint of camp. I'm concerned that we'll either get a sitcom or we'll get a lot of winking to the audience.
Marc Singer
So this actually brings me back to something I tried to say about Aquaman and didn't quite express.
When I compare it to The Little Mermaid, I'm not actually being snarky or trying to put it down. I found it kind of charming!
JL Franke
I will confess, I've never seen The Little Mermaid. I have no soul.
Jason Tondro
You poor unfortunate soul.
Marc Singer
Now I feel like I should quote "Under the Sea" and I'm coming up blank.
Anyway, one of the things I think Wan really gets right about the DC heroes... and he gets this even better than Patty Jenkins did in WW... is that they're all kind of fairy tale characters.
JL Franke
So what movie would we want to see next? Me, I'd actually like to see Cavill get a chance at playing Superman in a non-Snyder movie.
Marc Singer
I mean, the typical Marvel hero is an adult or teenager who lives in a world that looks passably like our own, and some trauma on the threshold of adulthood leads them to become a superhero.
JL Franke
Very true on the fairy tale characters. Myths or legends also fit.
Jason Tondro
I don’t think you will get your wish, Jerry. I think Cavill’s superman is relegated to the back issue bin of Hollywood.
Marc Singer
But the typical DC hero... their story starts when they're a kid! They are born or grow up in a magical kingdom. Their powers, their heroism are their birthright. Fairy tales and Disney movies are a pretty good model for that!
JL Franke
I can show you the world...
Marc Singer
So, following that principle, here's what I'd like to see:
Flash and Green Lantern are actually tough characters to adapt because their stories don't start when they're kids. They don't have the mythic dimension of DC characters and they don't really have the roundedness (okay, two-dimensionality) of Marvel characters either. But they do have locations that could work just as well as Atlantis does for Aquaman.
I want to see a Green Lantern movie where Oa is actually a place worth visiting... Things to Come meets Emerald City.
And Flash is really tricky. I think for him the fairy tale kingdom is the future.
Either that or a city of hyperintelligent gorillas, take your pick.
JL Franke
Although it has made little sense to me that DC was planning a Flash movie when they have an active tv show that has been covering most of the ground that a movie would. Though maybe a time travel movie to the future would work.
Marc Singer
But I want to see the DC movies pick themselves up out of the gutter (except Batman, he lives there) and explore some of this strange, wonderful, ridiculous universe they have inherited, and largely squandered.
JL Franke
Green Lantern, if done right, could be an amazing franchise. It's unfortunate the first attempt missed so badly.
I'd also note that previously on The Fifth World, I've written about how DC should do a Hawkman movie. The character lends itself to a whole host of different movie genres, from noir to space opera to pure fantasy.
Marc Singer
I think Warners and DC learned all the wrong lessons from the success of the Nolan movies. It was just Green Lantern's bad luck to be the next movie on the docket.
Jason Tondro
Someone has said the magic word, and I am being summoned. Thank you all, I really enjoyed being back with the gang.
Marc Singer
Yeah, this was great!
JL Franke
True. And I point back at Warners as the primary culprit there, but maybe I'm not being fair.
Anyway, I think this is a good time to step out myself. Thanks for organizing this, Marc!
Marc Singer
Thank you guys for taking part!
If you have a topic you'd like to see the Fifth World address, tweet it to @5thworldonline and include #FridayPanel in your tweet.
5W Friday Panel: The DC Extended Universe
Reviewed by Marc Singer
on
Monday, January 07, 2019
Rating:
Reviewed by Marc Singer
on
Monday, January 07, 2019
Rating:
